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Questions, questions, QUESTIONS! Questions...

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Author Post
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Hey guys... I've noticed my tag name pop up here and there with "You should ask him" lately, so I thought I'd start up a thread where you can post questions about ball tech and other fine points of equipment.

A couple of caveats though...

Don't ask for ball recommendations. I'm not a rep, and I just don't feel right about recommending pieces for bowler's I've never seen.

Feel free to ask questions about layouts, but I'll expect you to have at least read my article "Let's make holes in stuff!".

I'll give you the comparison between balls if asked specifically. Pick 2 or 3 and I'll gladly give my opinion on what you can expect. But don't dump 6, or 12, or the entire line from MoRich, and say: "So?"

I'm also very well versed in braces (I've used them all!), gloves, inserts, slugs, pads, tape, and pretty much every other doodad and whatchacallit on a pro shops wall.

Don't forget shoes! The most overlooked component of a bowler's bag.

Again... I can give you an honest impression of what you're likely to expect from anything, but I don't feel comfortable recommending junk outright.

EXAMPLES!
Good:
"I was wondering what the real difference between the Clash and Bash is?"

or

"I'm getting a new C300 Resurgence before Columbia retires it like a bunch of doofus'. I'm just trying to figure out which layout to go with. What would a 4x4 have over a 5x3?"

Bad:
"Uh... I want a thing. It's, y'know, red and stuff. Tell me what to get."

or

"I have a Brunswick..."

What I'd really like to help with, is knowing your own equipment. The most important thing to understand before you pick up anything new, is to figure out what you already have, and what you can do to use it better.

Too much focus is on acquiring new stuff. And lots of it. I'm telling you, there's NOTHING better than destroying some boaster with the latest equipment while using an old beat up ball, or dropping someone carrying 10 different balls when you only brought 2.

My goal here is to help you be more knowledgeable bowlers. Better bowling through greater knowledge. It's what my coach taught me, and what I'd like to pass on.

So hit me with those questions!
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
« Last edit by s2dio on 2008-12-18 5:19. »
Member
Was thinking of trying a Robby's Revs or something...To help you know why, I have low revs...PAP 4 3/4 over, 1 1/8 up. Very high tracker, usually a little over my thumb. I am working on trying to make it lower with more hand, but it just doesn't seem to be working. Any suggestions? Maybe not a wrist support? IDK you give me an opinion lol..
_______________
Jason Donders
University of Delaware Club Bowling '08-'09
Highest '07 - '08 THS Avg: 216
College Bowling Average (15 games so far): 171.5 and rising (starting to learn the sport shots better with experience)

Arsenal:
Storm Dimension - OOB
Ebonite Pin Slasher - OOB
Track Kinetic Energy - 2000 Abralon
Ebonite Playmaker - OOB
Ebonite Maxim

Balls Looking to Trade/Sell:
Brunswick Copperhead - Used for 3 games
Columbia 300 Wrath Dead Flush - Used for about 30 games
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
jdonders...

Any hard plastic positioner is good for altering your track. Because they don't allow for much wrist movement, either flex, or extension, they usually alter your PAP.

It should come closer to your center of grip if you get something that really locks your wrist up.

As far as actual positioners go, just look for the cheapest and most comfortable. No matter what they say on the pack, they all do the same thing, hold your wrist and hand in line.

I'd suggest going up the ladder first... Try a stronger wrist position, then a wristlet, then a brace, then a positioner. Once you put on a positioner, it's very hard to take it off.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Orlando Florida
Shoes...

Well christmas is coming up and I cant afford SSTs.

My pair now is just the basic Dexters. The bottom is torn and bends on my sliding shoe and the inside is all torn. So I already know I am getting a new pair (parents told me) But is there really BIG difference?

Most likely I am just getting another basic shoe but black this time. They have like a silver line going down the middle of them.

But I really need to know more about shoes that way I can ask for a different and or maybe better pair if it matters. Please help :roll:
_______________
16 years old
Saturday morning Scratch League avg - 205 (Sport Shots, Finished)
Sunday travel league avg - 215 (Received high avg award)

high series: 792 ( 244, 280, 268 )
high games-300! (01/31/09 I was 15) 278(3 times), 279(18 times)

My Gear-
Hammer: BW Sting
Ebonite: Evolve
Ebonite: Bash
Ebonite: Total Nv
Ebonite: Raid
Ebonite: Striking Motion
Ebonite: Playmaker
Ebonite: Maxim Capt Fireball
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
bowlerboi...

The short answer is yes... There's a big difference when it comes to shoes.

When you get to a certain level, you'll want to look into handed shoes, meaning that only one shoe has the slide on it.

The real deal with the extra cost is durability. If you take a great pair of starters (like the Dexter Saber) and compare them to a high performance shoe (SST8 ), you'll notice that the stitching, the leather, and the sole are all just most durable.

Also... Basic intro shoes have a slide on both soles. With performance shoes, you'll be able to replace the slide and heel (and even the entire sole - SST8 ) to suit the approach conditions.

I'd strongly recommend you move up to a pair of shoes with both a slide and grip sole.

And here's an insider tip for you... Dexter, Etonic, Dynaroos, and even Brunsyuck shoes are all made in the same place, with the same materials.

I just picked up a pair of "Etonic Avid E>Classic". But a pair of of "Entry SST" is maybe 10$ more than a basic.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
"i have a brunswick" ........... no, just kidding. Im wondering what kind of drilling i should get on the virtual. Right now i have cell pearl, drilled fairly aggresive and to get down the lane, a striking motion drilled for a smoother (not smooth) arc than the cp, and of course one of my faves now the jazz, drilled weak. Im looking for something that will be very agressive, a very early roll with a lot of hook. And sorry about the brunswick thing and sorry for sounding kinda like scoreking at the end LOL
_______________
My arsenal:

Ebonite - Pin Slasher
Roto Grip - Cell, Cell Pearl, Rogue Cell
Storm - Virtual Gravity, Rapid Fire, Second Dimension, Tropical Storm

House shot average - 227
PBA experience average - 188
High game - 300
Member
Location: About 50 miles north of Pittsburgh, PA
This is a great thread and thank you S2DIO for taking this on, I know it will be well appreciated by all. I have an AMF Sumo and an AMF Angle. I used the Angle as my only ball from about 1987 - 1992. Then I got the Sumo around 1992. I've been using it ever since. I haven't bowled on a league in about 4 years and have only bowled once or twice for fun in the past 2 years. I started going on saturdays with my son, to get back into the swing of things. The first week was awful, I shot a 128, 139. I couldn't get the Sumo to come back at all like it used to. I tried the Angle and it seemed a little longer, but not as I was used to. I went again the next saturday and things got a little better I shot 179, 165, 190. Nothing great, but hey after that long of a break, was better. I know they aren't the best balls, but I can't really go out and get a new one right now. I carry both balls, but only use the Sumo for now, I'm in no position to be playing arsenal anymore. What are the characteristics of each ball. Are they both for light oil or what? Also my son has an old Ebonite Tornado, what are some tips for him to throw that ball (it is not fingertip drilled). I appreciate any help. Thank you!!!
_______________
What's in my bag?
I have balls in my bag!!! Big ones!!!
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
colton...

First thing you need to do is get your PAP. Then you can find out what the actual layouts are on your equipment, that's important, even for you young guys.

The thing to take into account with the VG and your line-up is it is MUCH stronger. It will hook harder than anything you have now by a LARGE margin. The coverstock is very aggressive, and the low RG core has a very high Diff. The Virtual Gravity is meant to hook when nothing else does, in the deepest oil, sub particle covers.

For an early roll and aggressive hook, a common layout would be 4x4, or maybe 4x3 for a bit more of an angular attack on the pocket.

But that would be for someone who has a bowler scale rating of 3. Get your PAP measured, and then post it here, and if you have any video of you bowling, it'll make any suggestion I have better.

Christian...

That's a pretty good 1-2 punch... The AMF Angle goes long and straight, and the AMF Sumo has a great big core in it.

When new the Angle was for light oil... It was meant as an entry ball for they're line. It was right at the end of the urethane cover days. The good thing is that it will be around long after your son's son's son leaves for Neptune. The not so good thing is that it's not really meant for much more than a slight curve when it hits the deck. Amazingly enough... AMF has decided to reissue it! The NEW AMF Angle

The Sumo on the other hand is a classic fat hook. A low RG core and a low diff made for big round arcs... If it was drilled right. Finding info on it is rather hard, but my brother-in-law actually has one. I always found it odd that they put the pin at the corner of the label, it's a stealthy ball like that because it just ends up being a sedate looking black ball with no label. The Sumo is a predecessor to the Columbia Resurgence, and both are made to see some oil.

3 tips for all young bowlers.

1. Keep your eye on your target. When I was coaching the midget team last Summer, I'd hear a million: "Yeh yeh Stew... I'm keeping my eye on it." Then I started cam'ing them and showing it to them. The would look up, or at the ball, or at their foot. Keeping your eyes locked on your target is the first, and most important step to better accuracy.

2. Let the ball do the work. People love the big hook, and it's a goal that everyone strives for. But younger players these days are getting ahead of themselves trying to make the ball come back from hooking so much. It's why "crankers" have hit and miss games, they can play 1 line, and have trouble adjusting once that line burns up. Let the ball fall in front, swing back, and come forward in its own time. Doing this allows you to concentrate more on hitting your target, and keeping balance a flow together during your whole approach. Get that stuff down, then rip your shoulder out.

3. Take care of your equipment. It isn't free. Taking 5 to 10 minutes after each session to properly clean and inspect your equipment can prolong its life for years. A quick trip to the pro shop to get it cleaned and polished/roughed is usually inexpensive, and well maintained equipment WILL absolutely improve your game.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
Quick question...I can get the SST8's for about 130, would they come with ALL the soles and heels?
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Moderator
Location: Sweden
Since there is no PM system on this forum I'll leave Hollywood's post for now to give jsonders a chance to reply but I will delete it soon.

This thread is for questions FOR s2dio and answers FROM s2dio and unless he tells me otherwise I will delete anything that doesn't fit that description from now on.

He is doing you a big favor helping you like this so respect that and keep the thread clean and serious.
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
BeatdownT wrote
Quick question...I can get the SST8's for about 130, would they come with ALL the soles and heels?


They come with a big assortment of slides, and heels.

Slides are the S2, S6, S8, and S10. Heels are the H2, H5, and H7. Then you have the new Total treads, the T3 and T7.

130$ is a good discount price. But just check the box. I know that when I sell stuff heavily discounted, but I take all the extras out of the box, and sell them separately.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
Well it's not the discount we receive through the school. We only get balls and bags. An online website has them for about 130 or so with free shipping, so thats what I was concerned about.
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Retail... Dexter SST 8's are going for near 200$.

I saw bowlingball.com and bowling.com have them for 130$... But I'd be wary of buying those and expecting a full box.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Hollywood wrote
jdonders i saw i ur sig it say ur getting rid of your Wrath dead flush and it said any takers, iwas wondreing if you were seroius, lol

just wondering what weight and what kind of condition its in


Hollywood I am serious..
15#, good condition..I'd say it has around 40-50 games on it..lmk how much you would be willing to pay

Hollywood if you are interested, start another thread and/or exchange email/IMS to talk about details. Don't use this thread. /vankis
_______________
Jason Donders
University of Delaware Club Bowling '08-'09
Highest '07 - '08 THS Avg: 216
College Bowling Average (15 games so far): 171.5 and rising (starting to learn the sport shots better with experience)

Arsenal:
Storm Dimension - OOB
Ebonite Pin Slasher - OOB
Track Kinetic Energy - 2000 Abralon
Ebonite Playmaker - OOB
Ebonite Maxim

Balls Looking to Trade/Sell:
Brunswick Copperhead - Used for 3 games
Columbia 300 Wrath Dead Flush - Used for about 30 games
« Last edit by vankis on 2008-12-12 7:30. »
Member
Hey s2dio,

I just recently got another Rapid Fire Pearl specifically for the Chameleon pattern. I'd like to talk some different layouts. I've got about a 40 degree axis tilt, with 15-16 mph, and about 300-330 RPMs. I usually like to start out with my Momentum (layout #1), playing about 25 with my feet, 17 at the arrows, 12 at the breakpoint. Unfortunately, this line doesn't last me much more than a game, and my Spit Fire tends to go a little too long when I try to play the same line. I'd like this ball to be specifically for bridging the gap between my Momentum and my Spit Fire. Any suggestions?
_______________
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers..."
- Carl Sagan
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
TheK...

That's a very tight arc for someone with a good amount of revs and speed. The layout on the Momentum you mention is long and actually quite soft, and if your Spit Fire is going longer, then it probably has a longer pin and more aggressive CG placement.

The problem I see is that both are symmetric cores, as is the RFP. The Chameleon pattern is pretty heavy oil and right in the middle in terms of length at 40'... The big issue with the Chameleon pattern isn't burn up, but carry down. Adding low RG cores, and aggressive polished covers just hurries up that carry down.

Symmetric cores tend to make for arcing shots, no matter how close you keep the MB/CG to your PAP, they never get that vicious kick of an asym. That means the balls tend to create a wave in the oil, as they rev down the lane, they push the oil out, and form a channel. If you miss right into the channel, your ball will continue down and miss it's breakpoint. Asyms play a straighter line, and stay on top of the oil until they make a quick turn at the break.

If it's really a question of layout for a later in the day Chameleon pattern, and for the RFP... I'd suggest a pin much shorter, I'd go under the lev point and put it at about 2.875" - 3.375". The RFP has a much higher RG than the Momentum, and add its pearl cover, and it will skid forever playing such a tight line on the Chameleon. To keep that RG low, you need a short pin length. Then I'd kick the CG/MB out closer to your PAP for more of an angular attack on the pocket.

Say a layout that's 3"x3.5"... Similar to Columbia's Drilling #2, but with the CG a bit lower and further right.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio --

Redoing my arsenal...all the balls that I'm trying to sort out are:
An Ebonite Pin Slasher on its way
A Track Kinetic Energy at 2000
A Brunswick Copperhead that is at 2000 + polish
An Ebonite Playmaker on its way
A Columbia 300 Wrath Dead Flush that is at OOB

I just bought the Copperhead, got it drilled pin under bridge (don't know how far away from PAP, but my PAP is 4 3/4 over, 1 1/8 up -- yes very high). I have medium speed (around 15-17 mph), and low revs. My question for you is what do I do with my Copperhead? I can't get it to do anything. I've tried taking the surface down, OOB surface, polish -- it just doesn't move. Now I know it's drilled weak, but with buying the other 2 balls, I just can't afford to redrill it. I am thinking of selling it, and possibly replacing it. I'm gonna keep the Pin Slasher, Kinetic Energy, and Playmaker. The KE I like at 2000; the smooth reaction is wonderful. So maybe I could drill the Playmaker strong, and put something like a Jazz at the bottom? LMK of your opinions on the Copperhead, and my arsenal as a whole. Thanks a lot
_______________
Jason Donders
University of Delaware Club Bowling '08-'09
Highest '07 - '08 THS Avg: 216
College Bowling Average (15 games so far): 171.5 and rising (starting to learn the sport shots better with experience)

Arsenal:
Storm Dimension - OOB
Ebonite Pin Slasher - OOB
Track Kinetic Energy - 2000 Abralon
Ebonite Playmaker - OOB
Ebonite Maxim

Balls Looking to Trade/Sell:
Brunswick Copperhead - Used for 3 games
Columbia 300 Wrath Dead Flush - Used for about 30 games
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
jdonders...

Shame you bought a Brunswick.

Now on to stuff I will answer... There's a major problem with the Pin Slasher and Playmaker. They're the same ball with different clothes. Then add in the Kinetic Energy, and it too has a lower RG core too, but at least it's an asym.

Unless you plan of using radically different layouts for each, you should really consider foregoing the Pin Slasher or Playmaker for a Bash or Clash.

A good lineup, if you must have 4 balls, would be: The Kinetic Energy, Pin Slasher (it has a better coverstock than the Playmaker), Clash, and Jazz. That lineup would give you a much better range to attack the different oil conditions.

Now, I'll just gloss over the fact it's a Brunswick, and give you my honest opinion about your Copperhead.

Someone made a big mistake.

To have a pin nearly on the center of grip for someone with a very high PAP is completely wrong. I can bet your oil tracks run over your finger, and possibly thumb hole too. Whoever punched up that ball used an enormous pin buffer and killed the balls reaction for your measurements.

There in lies the problem with old school drilling. They just position the pin around your finger holes, then read the PAP measurement AFTER it's done.

To make that ball work for you, you'd have to drastically change your bowling style... Best to sell it.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Thanks -- yea it's gonna go, and I will NEVER buy Brunswick again lol.

On my arsenal...although the PS and Playmaker are the same ball basically, I really want both in my arsenal (I know, I'm stubborn lol). So adding a Jazz or Bash would be best, correct?
_______________
Jason Donders
University of Delaware Club Bowling '08-'09
Highest '07 - '08 THS Avg: 216
College Bowling Average (15 games so far): 171.5 and rising (starting to learn the sport shots better with experience)

Arsenal:
Storm Dimension - OOB
Ebonite Pin Slasher - OOB
Track Kinetic Energy - 2000 Abralon
Ebonite Playmaker - OOB
Ebonite Maxim

Balls Looking to Trade/Sell:
Brunswick Copperhead - Used for 3 games
Columbia 300 Wrath Dead Flush - Used for about 30 games
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Yes. You definitely need something with a higher RG in there. But maybe you should get a Gamebreaker too.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Thanks s2dio! I'll definitely discuss this with the guys at the pro shop. To explain, I play such a tight line because I hate to give away the head pin away on the Chameleon. And yes, you are correct. The pin on my Spit Fire is 4".
_______________
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers..."
- Carl Sagan
Member
i would like a tip on layouts
here is what i want out of the ball i want to play around the track to the outside part of the lane i have relatively low revs (i dont know exactly what it is) i have a speed of around 15 mph
i would like this ball to be a benchmark ball for
i am looking at the Red zone or the Copperhead

have you got any ideas on where the pin etc should be in comparison to my PAP
if the ball choice is a bad one could you give me an idea of what would be a good idea and an idea of a layout
_______________
almost 2 years of bowling
average - 183
high game - 247 (practice) 258 (league)
high series - 627(203,210,214)
equipment :-
-Storm attitude shift
-Brunswick avalanche pearl
-Brunswick Target Zone
Member
Location: Florida USA
What's a better compliment to the VG, a Rapid Pearl or Hyroad? What do you think I should go with pertaining to layouts for them with my information? I'm pretty sure we've discussed how I bowl already...

Right now I'm definitely leaning more towards the pearl drilled length because the hyroad I threw hooked quite a lot and I want less.
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Chipmunk...

Even though I'll have to bleach my eyes... I took a look into those two pieces by They Who Must Not Be Named.

I think the Red Zone is out of circulation, and discontinued. Also I think if your main ball now it the Storm Tropical, it may be too big a leap to such a low RG rating.

The Copperhead though does match up with a Bowler Scale 4 (what you are, speed dominant). It has a strong coverstock too at 800-grit wet sand. Because it's a symmetric core it won't snap on you either, it'll have a good strong arc.

A strong Scale 4 rating would keep the PIN length around the 3.375" range, maybe even a tad under. At 15mph though, I'd stick closer to 4" (but not over), and fine tune things after with polish.

As for other balls... I'd recommend staying near the RG rating of around 2.5. Any lower might give you too early a roll, and burn up all that pin smashing energy.

Storm's Dimension, Roto's Cell, and a personal favourite, Raw Hammer Anger, would all serve well.

Stay away from high polish and pearls. Matte finish and solid all the way...

BeatdownT...

The Hy-Road is a tough ball to describe isn't it? The coverstock is literally right in the middle of a pearl and solid, so you get the length of a pearl (kinda) and the strength of a solid (kinda) in the back end.

My real problem is just how close the RFP and HyRoad are... Same RG at 15lbs, same flare potential, same finish, and the base coverstock is the same too.

If you already had the T-Road's... I'd say stick with that line. But having a Virtual makes me think the RFP would be better in the long run (and because i'm totally biased and think the Fire Line is Storm's best).

As for a layout... Nothing under 4.5" for the pin, and swing out the CG a tad to get some backend oomph.

The layout I've used is 4.5"x3" with a 2.25" pin buffer. It'll get down the lane, then make a strong curve, instead of a quick snap that doesn't work well with symmetric cores.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
Alright, thanks. I'm going to try to get one of them in January from my coach.
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's

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