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Questions, questions, QUESTIONS! Questions...

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Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Just gave a tester "The One Pearl" a game on the lanes... All I can say is... YAY! Something from the One series that I can use!

They really shined it up beautifully, and the big core makes for a great move down the lane.

Supposedly we're getting a "Magic" and "Hammer Hot Sauce" late next week... I'm interested to see the Hot Sauce.

Last year was Solids, Solids, Solids... This year it's Hybrid Pearls. I like that.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
Yes, I am very excited with the recent output of hybrid pearls as well.....

Gives us "2 Scale" bowlers something to look forward too....
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Member
I have a question. I switched to oval thumb inserts a couple months ago but i still have to use tape, like 2 or 3 pieces. Is this normal, cause i switched so i wouldnt have to use so much tape, but it didnt help as much as i thought.
_______________
My arsenal:

Ebonite - Pin Slasher
Roto Grip - Cell, Cell Pearl, Rogue Cell
Storm - Virtual Gravity, Rapid Fire, Second Dimension, Tropical Storm

House shot average - 227
PBA experience average - 188
High game - 300
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
What exactly do you mean by inserts? What model of VISE or Turbo are you using?

Either way... I'm betting you had your ball drilled in the Spring or Fall, and you had it drilled in the evening. That's normally when your hand is neutral + or swollen, and the hole tends to end up a bit oversized.

To be honest, I never drill a ball to fit exactly. I always go a bit oversize for everyone, that way you can use tape to fill, and pull it when your thumb swells as the day progresses.

All the pros I've met use tape... If you don't like the feel, switch to black, and put it on the outside.

I've never had a ball that I didn't stick tape in, so having none messes with my head.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Orlando Florida
Guy in my proshop said that to. He likes to drill my thumb when its swollen and just use tape. Its soo much easier to add tape when its normal and then take it out as it swells out. This will help if you are at a big tournament or any tournament and you have to bowl a good amount of games. You dont have to worry about getting it drilled bigger. Just use tape.
_______________
16 years old
Saturday morning Scratch League avg - 205 (Sport Shots, Finished)
Sunday travel league avg - 215 (Received high avg award)

high series: 792 ( 244, 280, 268 )
high games-300! (01/31/09 I was 15) 278(3 times), 279(18 times)

My Gear-
Hammer: BW Sting
Ebonite: Evolve
Ebonite: Bash
Ebonite: Total Nv
Ebonite: Raid
Ebonite: Striking Motion
Ebonite: Playmaker
Ebonite: Maxim Capt Fireball
Member
Yea, i like the tape i just thought that i wouldnt need as much with the oval thumb inserts, and no i do not know what brand they are. But the REALLY bad thing is that i injured my wrist and i havent bowled in 2 weeks, and my thumb has shrunk alot. I put my hand in one of my balls today and its almost to big to throw. Got any advice on that?

Edit : I got the oval thumb inserts in the fall, but i got resized about a month ago when i got a couple new balls.
_______________
My arsenal:

Ebonite - Pin Slasher
Roto Grip - Cell, Cell Pearl, Rogue Cell
Storm - Virtual Gravity, Rapid Fire, Second Dimension, Tropical Storm

House shot average - 227
PBA experience average - 188
High game - 300
Member
Location: Orlando Florida
if its really that big, than you can either plug it up and have it redrilled. Or just keep putting tape in it until it fits you.
_______________
16 years old
Saturday morning Scratch League avg - 205 (Sport Shots, Finished)
Sunday travel league avg - 215 (Received high avg award)

high series: 792 ( 244, 280, 268 )
high games-300! (01/31/09 I was 15) 278(3 times), 279(18 times)

My Gear-
Hammer: BW Sting
Ebonite: Evolve
Ebonite: Bash
Ebonite: Total Nv
Ebonite: Raid
Ebonite: Striking Motion
Ebonite: Playmaker
Ebonite: Maxim Capt Fireball
Member
I was thinking of pluging it, but im sure once i start up again its going to go right back to being the size it used to be. So im probably just going to tough if out and use a crap load of tape.
_______________
My arsenal:

Ebonite - Pin Slasher
Roto Grip - Cell, Cell Pearl, Rogue Cell
Storm - Virtual Gravity, Rapid Fire, Second Dimension, Tropical Storm

House shot average - 227
PBA experience average - 188
High game - 300
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Redrilling, filling, and plugging are an absolute last resort. Bboi please don't suggest that again.

I'm still waiting for what type of insert you're using... You may be able to get a sleeve inserted if it's a big problem.

How much tape are we talking? I regularly use 3 pieces, and up to 6 on my main piece.

Another thing is to use a cork insert along with a single tape like Norm Duke does.

But here's a good tip. Buy a sponge. Not one of those 5 packs from the grocery store or something for washing the car. An organic sponge. Substitute it for a grip sack or towel when you're drying your hand. With a real sponge, you'll only need to lightly squeeze it to get rid of the moisture. I know some people have a tendency to really wring their towel, or crush their grip sack repeatedly.

The less you use, and abuse your ball hand, the less likely it is to swell and shrink during a session.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio,

Can you layout a Symetrical ball the same as you would an Asymetrical ball or do you need to alter the drilling. I have heard about keeping the CG in grip center, but no good insite yet. I have a Columbia resurgence that I drilled up before I knew the difference. I didnt get the reaction I was looking for- the strong arcing motion that this ball is suppose to deliver.

My PAP- 5 1/2'' over 1/2'' up

The ball in question - 14 lbs Columbia Resurgence- pin 3 3/4 in. to CG.
I went Pin under ring finger with CG 2 inches right from grip center
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
pinsetter

Well that's very old school. Looking at the layout you ended up with, someone figured you wanted lots of length... LOTS.

With the pin that close to your grip center, and your PAP being over 5", someone figured a 5" Pin with a 5" buffer would be a good idea. And with the CG swung out, it must have more of a quick snap on the back end.

As for layouts on Syms vs. Asyms... They follow the same rules. The closer you put the CG to your PAP, the more angular the break is. The further from your PAP you put the CG, the more arc you get.

I'd like to know a bit about your game itself... Is your ball speed slower, while your revs are higher?

Also, take a good look at my layout thread, Let's make holes in stuff!, it should help you understand more about the layout you have.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio wrote
pinsetter

Well that's very old school. Looking at the layout you ended up with, someone figured you wanted lots of length... LOTS.

With the pin that close to your grip center, and your PAP being over 5", someone figured a 5" Pin with a 5" buffer would be a good idea. And with the CG swung out, it must have more of a quick snap on the back end.

As for layouts on Syms vs. Asyms... They follow the same rules. The closer you put the CG to your PAP, the more angular the break is. The further from your PAP you put the CG, the more arc you get.

I'd like to know a bit about your game itself... Is your ball speed slower, while your revs are higher?

Also, take a good look at my layout thread, Let's make holes in stuff!, it should help you understand more about the layout you have.


As for my ball speed -its around 14.5-15.5 with alot of revs on my ball.
This resurgence is brand new and this layout is useless to me. I have learned so much since having this ball drilled in reference to layouts pin position, mass bias,CG plaement ect. from just alot of reading. After learning so much, kinda makes me want to slap my ball driller who has been drilling all my balls and has never gotten my PAP until I recently went to him and asked him if he could find it. Some of my balls that I thought had strong layouts were really medium to weak after discovering where my PAP was.
There are a couple that I want to plug and redrill. Do you lose any of the dinamics of the ball when you plug and redrill?
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
pinsetter

Losing ball dynamics from a fill and drill is guaranteed. The filler is usually a different density, and then, depending on just how radical the change is, you might need a complete resurfacing.

If your driller is careful and precise, you won't lose much if any reaction, but I would suggest before you go crazy with the Cheez Whiz. Look into a balance hole and maybe some polish or sanding. A simple balance hole can work some serious magic on the reaction of the ball, while sanding or polishing may smooth out the curve, and give you the arc you're looking for.

Please remember that your driller can only know what you tell him, especially with old schoolers. They tend to assume a lot, so it's your job to be honest and direct with them about what you know and want. If you let them know just how much you understand the process, in a calm and polite manner, they'll be more forthcoming about the details.

Picking a Resurgence for a rev dominant bowler is a little bit of a stretch, it's a very strong ball... VERY. With such a low RG, and aggressive coverstock, it's not something I'd recommend. So that might be the reasoning behind such an emphasis on length in the layout. He may have been worried about the ball getting down the lane before it made it's left turn at Albuquerque.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio wrote
pinsetter

Losing ball dynamics from a fill and drill is guaranteed. The filler is usually a different density, and then, depending on just how radical the change is, you might need a complete resurfacing.

If your driller is careful and precise, you won't lose much if any reaction, but I would suggest before you go crazy with the Cheez Whiz. Look into a balance hole and maybe some polish or sanding. A simple balance hole can work some serious magic on the reaction of the ball, while sanding or polishing may smooth out the curve, and give you the arc you're looking for.

Please remember that your driller can only know what you tell him, especially with old schoolers. They tend to assume a lot, so it's your job to be honest and direct with them about what you know and want. If you let them know just how much you understand the process, in a calm and polite manner, they'll be more forthcoming about the details.

Picking a Resurgence for a rev dominant bowler is a little bit of a stretch, it's a very strong ball... VERY. With such a low RG, and aggressive coverstock, it's not something I'd recommend. So that might be the reasoning behind such an emphasis on length in the layout. He may have been worried about the ball getting down the lane before it made it's left turn at Albuquerque.


I already have a weight hole in this ball. I will try polishing some. My driller is not old school, just lazy I would say. He chooses not to share alot of his knowledge and skips steps because most customers dont know any better. Thats crazy when your plopping down 200 bucks on a ball. I have bought like 5 new balls in the last 5 months. I had the opportunity to speak with Wes Malott a couple of months ago thru a phone call I won when I purchased my Cell Pearl. He then told me how important it is that your driller takes the time to find your PAP before drilling your ball up and then go from there with the layout. Thats what began to open my eyes, because I knew I had been spending a lot of money on balls and my driller never had even spoke of my PAP. Not to mention now I have some equitment that is not recomended for my style. Your insight has been great. Im serious about my bowling and always trying to learn more.
« Last edit by pinsetter on 2009-01-21 2:53. »
Member
s2dio

I read your whole thred "Let's make holes in stuff." Good info, but how do you determine low RG and high RG. What I mean is on a scale what is considered low- high.

Ex: Over what number is high and under what number is low and a medium if there is a medium
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
pinsetter

Good question! You made me realize I'd kinda missed that in my Holes article...

So I added it in "Part #5 - What?"
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Albuquerque, NM
...I am in a slump right now, and I can't seem to figure out what I am doing. I have been consistently missing my mark to the right. I have eliminated my pushaway as one of the causes, and I have also eliminated my head moving during my approach...I think that I might be opening my shoulder, which could be causing me to bring the ball behind my back...sort of like this:
User posted image

My question is this:
Is there anything that I can do in practice or competition to stop doing this?

I also have a question about ball maintainance. Is there any way to "de-oil" a ball at home, without taking it to a pro shop and having them do whetever they do there? I haven't had this done to any of my balls in about 100 games, so...yeah...they have too much oil in them.
_______________
Practice High Scores:

Game: 279--10 pin in the 6th
Series: 724

PBA League High Scores:

Game:
Series:

My averages:

School team-THS average: 189.67
PBA league average:

My arsenal:

Brunswick Fury
Ebonite NVD
Ebonite Complete NV
Ebonite Tornado
Columbia 300 White Dot




26 Wii Bowling 300s
High Wii Bowling series: 887
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
bowlingdude23

Missing your mark can be attributed to a million things. But the first thing I always recommend is slowing everything down. Move up on the approach, lower your pushaway and backswing, take smaller steps, and generally go easier. Trying to push your swing, or muscle it often leads to it losing its natural swing arc.

Bowling is a mechanical effort. It requires you to repeat a specific motion time and time again. The best way to do this is to slow down, and make every movement very deliberate. By doing everything slowly, your body learns the movement, and adds it to your muscle memory. Much like a guitarist practicing the same song over and over, so that when the time comes for the performance, he can concentrate on making cool faces and being awesome, and let his muscle memory play the song.

When we bowl for a long period, we tend to start taking things for granted, and we lose track of the small things. At the same time, our game changes. You learn more, you try more, you get different equipment, etc... Every now and then you have to reset yourself. Slow down and make sure everything is still on line.

As for un'oiling a ball, the only ways are with the hot water technique, or with a household degreaser.

At one proshop I work for, they have a Rejuvenator Oven, which is great. It's a customized oven for bowling balls specifically designed to get the deep oil out of the coverstock. Of course it costs an enormous amount, and we charge people through the nose to use it.

The other proshop I work for just uses "Powerhouse Hook Again", which is basically silica gel that sits there sucking out the oil. It works just as well... But, 1, it's more expensive, and, 2, sometimes you still need to give the ball a spin with a cleaner and abralon pad afterward.

Now for the honest opinion part... If your ball is affected that much by oil, you haven't been cleaning it well after every session. With a good cleaning after every round, you can rack up enormous game counts on a ball before you need to resurface it.

And to quote "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"... Don't forget your towel. You've got 30 seconds between the ball return and your delivery. Give your ball a good wipe down between rolls.

Simple maintenance done right can save you on the hardcore maintenance later on.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio

In the "Let's make holes in stuff" thread you talked about mass bias placement on the layout of a ball. I understand completly the placement of the mass bias dertermines your shape on the backend, but I wanted to know about putting the mass bias pass the VAL. What kind of shape on the backend could you expect then?

And is the mass bias on the VAL the strongest position or is between the track and the VAL?
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
pinsetter

Putting the PIN or MB on your PAP results is the strongest reaction either will give. Putting your PIN on your PAP will have the ball roll immediately, the breakpoint will be about 2" from your hand. Putting the MB on your PAP gives you the most angular reaction.

But remember that there's a big problem with both of those. In order to put the MB on your PAP, the Pin has to have a length of 6.75". Which as we now know, makes for a breakpoint somewhere around the North pole, give or take a few miles.

As for putting the MB outside the VAL...

Your VAL runs in parallel with you grip center line. Any placement in between those two lines is considered "positive placement". You're using the core dynamics to their fullest, and creating strong layouts.

Any placement outside those 2 parallel lines is considered "negative placement". When you push the MB outside the VAL, you're weakening it's reaction.

For an example on a right handed layout, if you were to place the MB to the left of your grip center by 1", you'd get the same reaction as placing it 1" right of your VAL, even though you're that much closer to the PAP.

The MB points to the balls preferred spin axis. With no holes in a piece, it will always orient itself back to it as it spins. When you punch up a ball, you're working with your PAP and the balls preferred spin axis in order to balance the reaction, breakpoint, and angularity, to create the arc to the pocket you want.

By keeping the MB inside the positive placement area, you work with it's strengths, but placing it outside, you're working with its weaknesses.

You see pros use these types of layouts for late in the day play. Robert Smith uses negative Pins often to fight his insane rev rate, and Wes Malott uses negative MB placements to combat his low axis tilt.

They're extreme layouts though. You have to be on your game to control them, or they (A) will just go straight and do nothing, or (B) immediately make their complete break and arc inside the heads.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
One question. I saw a rapid fire pearl and it did not have the mass bias marked on it. Anyway to figure out where it's at so I can do the key drilling?
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
BeatdownT

The Fire Line has the CG (center of gravity) marked, because it has a symmetrical core. Usually, Syms have the Pin and CG marked, while Asyms have the Pin, MB, and sometime the CG, marked.

You can still use the exact same layout procedure, by just substituting the MB to PAP length for the CG to PAP length.

You still get the same layout look, with the swung out CG.

The only issue is the arcs intersection is smaller and slightly harder to see its exact start point.

The Pin is usually 2.5" to 3" from the CG stamp depending on the manufacturer, which I believe is a little swirl with "PEARL" over it on the RFP, so you can just search around until you find the distance Storm uses from Pin to CG.

Then you can do your practice layout with those positions, instead of Pin to MB of 6.75". You can still use the same lengths, and pin buffer we discussed too without worry.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Location: Florida USA
Ok, so the lower distance between the Pin and CG compared to Pin and MB doesn't have an affect on the layout?
_______________
Average - 180 - that's also having only played on PBA shots, and/or sport shots during practice. I am unaware of my THS average
High Game - 278

Arsenal:
Storm Virtual Gravity
Storm Rapid Fire Pearl *NEW*
Columbia 300 White Dot

Shoes:
New Dexter SST8's
Member
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
BeatdownT

Nope... The layout lengths still correspond to their original intentions. Having the CG closer to your PAP gives more angle, while pushing it further gives more arc.

You can actually layout the MB on a ball with only the CG and Pin marked. In fact, a lot of old school methods call for doing this.

It requires shooting a line from the Pin, through the CG, then measuring 6.75" from the Pin and marking the MB. The issue with that is the CG isn't always in perfect line with the Pin and CG marks. My Raid for example has the CG stamp about 0.25" off the direct line from Pin to MB.

But really, there's no point. You can use the same Key Drilling Layout technique with the Pin and CG as you would with the Pin and MB.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
s2dio

How do different finger pitches affect the release of a bowling ball?

I was feeling my ball out the other day and got to thinking. Would moving thumb pitch a little to the left of centerline force you to rotate your hand more during the release?

Also, what about dropping the ring finger, being that there is a short distance (3/8" or more) between the joints of the ring and middle finger?

Can altering these things help your rotation on the ball and make your release cleaner?
« Last edit by pinsetter on 2009-01-26 11:04. »

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